In January, SGS INSPIRE launched its first podcast on energy in transport called INSPIRE-ing Energy Talks. We will have a new episode every two months and INSPIRE users are welcome to propose topics and join us as speakers!

In this episode, Lucky Nurafiatin spoke with Salah Mahdy, a global director for renewable hydrogen at Howden and Dhanisha Juleemun, a market analyst for Africa and Europe in SGS INSPIRE.

Salah led high-profile green and blue hydrogen and ammonia projects at Howden, a global leader in manufacturing air and gas handling solutions. The list of Salah’s projects includes the world’s first green steel plant, the largest hydrogen refuelling station, the first e-fuels plant and Europe’s first hydrogen underground storage project.

Dhanisha’s expertise is global fuel product development for diesel and gasoline vehicles. She forecasts the trend for new technology in the energy sector.

Over the past few years, the development of hydrogen fuel and hydrogen-fuel cell vehicles has grown exponentially. The first commercial hydrogen fuel cell vehicle was launched and sold in Japan in 2014 and in California at about the same time.

Fast forward to now, many countries set targets for hydrogen vehicles, with more models and types available on the market. However, the number of hydrogen vehicles on the road is still much smaller than electric vehicles. Our conversation revolved around the latest developments of hydrogen as a fuel for the transport sector, its benefits, and its consequences.

Hello everyone, wherever you are welcome to the SGS Inspire podcast service with me Lucky Nurafiatin. I am a market analyst for Asia Pacific region. In this episode on Hydrogen and Transport I have Mr. Salah Mahdy from Howden and my colleague Dhanisha Juleemun. Hello. Salah and Dhanisha. Welcome to inspiring energy talks.

Hi, lucky. Thank you very much.

Hi.

Let me introduce Salah to our listeners first, Salah is the global director for renewable hydrogen at Howden. With more than 20 years of professional experience, Salah has delivered high profile green and blue hydrogen as well as ammonia projects and studies. Under his leadership, Howden's advanced Hydrogen compression solutions have been selected to be in the heart of key projects for the global energy transition, including the world's first green steel plant, the largest hydrogen refilling station, the first E fuels plant, the first container vessel operating on carbon neutral fuel and Europe's first hydrogen underground storage project. Salah holds a master’s degree in chemical engineering and a master’s degree in business administration. Prior to joining Howden Salah held a senior business and engineering positions in global companies such as Worley, Honeywell, UOP, AspenTech (Aspen Technology, Inc) and ITM Power, thank you for being here, Salah.

Thank you very much Lucky.

As I mentioned earlier, we also have Dhanisha Juleemun with us. Dhanisha is a market analyst for Europe and Africa at SGS Inspire. Her expertise is focused on the global fuel product development for both diesel and gasoline vehicles as well as forecasting the trend for new technologies in the energy sector. She has eight years’ experience working in product development for fuels and lubricants, analysing vehicle park to design engine tests, assessing new additive chemistries, new trend in engine technology and fuel compositions. She holds a master’s degree in chemistry (CChem) (RSC.org). Prior to joining us at SGS Inspire, Dhanisha was a technology analyst at BP. So welcome to you also Dhanisha. How are you all?

Thank you, Lucky. Great. How are you, both?

In the past few years, the development of hydrogen fuel and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles has been growing exponentially. I remember there was some time in 2014 when the first hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicle was commercially launched and sold on the market. That was started in Japan. At the time, I think hydrogen refuelling stations were scarce and still is now too, but much better than in 2014. Salah, what is your company’s involvement in the development of hydrogen as fuel for vehicles or you may start with explaining what you are doing in hydrogen?

Yeah, absolutely Lucky. So, first, when we look into the ecosystem of the hydrogen refuelling system, it consists of number of key technologies. First of all and definitely the water electrolysis technologies that produce the green hydrogen at roughly pressure levels, from 1 to 30 volts. But then there is another key step that usually needs to be done, which is increasing the pressure of the produced hydrogen to the levels that the fuel cells electric vehicles need, which could be 350-700 bars so far, depending on the type of the vehicle. This is basically what need, and we can call the second major technology in the ecosystem, which is the compression, and this is Howden actually plays. Howden is a leading global provider of mission critical air and gas handling solutions on the products, in particular and for the hydrogen market, Howden is one of the world's leading suppliers for the hydrogen compression solutions with over 100 years of experience in this field. For example, one of the major compression technology in this space in the hydrogen refuelling space nowadays is what we call the diaphragm compression technology. I would say the vast majority of the hydrogen refuelling stations around the world it uses this technology. This technology Howden invented 100 years ago. Today, Howden technologies sit in the heart for the key examples that Lucky kindly gave at the beginning of the of the interview, that listed projects that we (Howden) did, include talking about the mobility, for example, the world's largest hydrogen refuelling station, that Howden supplies the compression solution to in 2021 in China.

Sorry. Where in China?

We have been supplying compression solutions to a larger number of hydrogen refuelling stations in different parts of the world, including (again) China, Europe, and New Zealand as well. I've been busy in this space, especially in the last two years. As you mentioned, the cadence that it has been created for the hydrogen space, especially in in the last two years, is exceptional. We see now, it is going to move up in the next few years. Our technologies have been supporting a number of key projects around the world, but not limited only to the mobility sector. Again, as you mentioned, the world’s first the green steel project in Sweden and the world’s first e-fuel plant in Chile. So, a mix really of key projects where proudly Howden technologies have been selected to support these projects around the world.

When you said about the largest hydrogen refuelling station in China, how big that you say the largest, can you explain a little bit more?

Yes, so far, the largest hydrogen refuelling station, is the high power one built in in China. Roughly it produces around 4.85 tonnes of hydrogen per day.

Is it operational.

Yes, indeed it is, they commissioned the station last year, definitely there are issues around getting the right amount of buses and vehicles. I think it was a really good step in the country, demonstrating their ability to build something that works. In China we have a very large number of hydrogen refuelling stations, and I think this will help in accelerating the growth in this sector in China.

OK. Interesting to see. We never expected to see this kind of growth, especially in the past two years with governments starting to have the 2050 net zero carbon emissions in various countries. So, at present it seems that there are two poles in the development of electric vehicles. For example, the battery electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles. At the end of the day, both run the engine on the electricity. Is it just that source of electricity is different. Do you think they are competitor or complementary to each other?

No, I don't believe that they are competitors. You know each of these technologies has their own strengths and weaknesses as well. I do believe that each one of them will have a space in the mobility market, they will sit actually better than the other, for example the battery from my perspective, can work very well for the short distance trips for the light vehicles. However, I believe it will have lots of challenges for the longer distance trips as well for heavy vehicles. This is basically because you would need huge batteries in terms of the size and the weight. But on top of this the charging time is one of the key challenges for the battery electric vehicles, compared to the hydrogen fuel cell electrical vehicles. You know, compared 45 minutes versus 4 to 17 minutes maximum for hydrogen. It is expected also to improve in the next few years. However, the advantage is that you can charge your car anywhere at home at charging points, and this is a big advantage over the hydrogen fuel cell electrical vehicles.

So, like you mentioned just now on the commercial side, they cannot wait. Especially for logistic trucks and everything. You cannot wait to charge, you know, idle for quite 45 minutes. For example. Like you mentioned earlier, because it's a loss in in revenue for them, right?

Absolutely. That's why both technologies can be considered complementary rather than competitive for this reason absolutely.

I kind of agree with you as well on that. Now I have some question for you both. In the past few months, we saw another development on hydrogen. some automotive companies are developing the use of hydrogen fuel in the internal combustion engine or as we call it ICE. What's your view on this? Maybe who? Who, who want to speak first?

Maybe Dhanisha can start?

OK yes, I think it's great that companies are investing in in new technologies for hydrogen in the transport sector. I think there's been a good momentum for fuel cells EV’s. Recently, and as a contender for zero emission vehicles by taper. But as EVs also have their own limitations in terms of lack of infrastructure or the heavyweight of the fuel cell or availability of precious metal for the production of the FCEV's. So, to develop and investigate new technologies and see if they work in practice, it's great, but of course hydrogen ICE engines also have their own constraints currently, but I think it could be further developed or optimised. I mean, let's not forget that space rockets uses hydrogen combustion to take off. I think it could work for aircrafts or big engines like and heavy-duty vehicles, but obviously there's more developments to be done.

OK thanks Dhanisha and what do you think Salah?

First, I would like to take what you said, echo what you said like a few minutes ago about the significant escalation that happened in the growth in in this market. To be honest, 10 years ago thus, you know, five years or six years ago. I remember when I was actually leading the build of what used to be the largest hydrogen filling station in UK and one of the largest hydrogen refuelling station in Europe back in 2018. At that time the size of the station was like 3 MW (Megawatts) producing roughly one lb of hydrogen. At that time, if you asked me, you know, and I'm very optimistic guy really. If you asked me at that time what would be your expectation for the largest size hydrogen production, green hydrogen production plant (not necessarily just for the hydrogen filling stations) I would say maybe in 5, 10 or 20 years.

But when you see what happened today, I mean companies like Shell announcing that they will build a 200 MW green hydrogen project in the Netherlands, China announced another 250 MW of equivalent to green hydrogen in China. I think it’s moving very fast as you said, especially in the last 18 months.

Unfortunately, the war in Ukraine and now the story started from looking at the hydrogen as an effective tool to fight climate change. Now we look at the hydrogen as an effective tool to achieve energy security that’s becoming important for a lot of countries. and this has pushed everything in a very significant way, not just the size of the projects as I mentioned, but also the technology developments across different parts and the hydrogen ecosystem. The electrolyzers you know, moving from the alkaline to the PEM to the solid oxide electrolyzers and other technologies coming, the same for the storage, the same for the compression.

I think we can apply the same also for the example that that you mentioned earlier, using the hydrogen as a fuel for the internal combustion engine. I think without a doubt, it's still a relatively new development as it’s still in the early stages of research and development. However, I believe once the right technology in this space has been developed, I'm a big believer that this will be a game changer. The reason behind this is that there are so many advantages that we can think of coming from this. That you know, the advantage that the ICE has over the fuel cell. First of all, the simplicity, yes, I mean remember the internal combustion engines are widely used and well understood technology, the efficiency of the internal combustion engines are generally more or better than the fuel cells. There is a longer journey, but it's expected to be a big advantage for this technology as well the cost, you know fuel cells so far are quite expensive. You know again it will take time really to cut the cost down. But this is also expected to be a big advantage to the ICE's. However, as I mentioned it will really take some time to see something coming from the research and development to use in the market.

What do you think will be more popular? The FCEV or hydrogen ICE, I know it's still probably too early to say, which one do you think will become more popular? Because it seems like from the automotive point of view. It's kind of competing between the hydrogen ICE and the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

It's difficult to predict the future and which technology will ultimately take the lead. But being realistic, I think for the short medium term, the fuel cells will be in the lead and will stay in the lead. But later the hydrogen internal combustion engines will have the advantage that I mentioned. This will take some time to happen. In the mobility sector, I'm confident that the internal combustion engines at a certain point will take the lead. As mentioned, in the transportation, or the mobility sector, having said that, we can't forbid that there is a need for the fuel cell in other sectors that the internal combustion engines cannot serve, for example the power generation as well.

Dhanisha, what do you think, do you agree with what Salah said?

Yes, I think you know the technology readiness level of FCV is much higher than hydrogen ICE, by this I mean several vehicle manufacturers have announced the scale of production of FCV, so their technology readiness level is close to commercialisation, whereas hydrogen ICE is still at an early stage of development, and you know, there are, I mean there are a lot of examples. For example, Deutz AG, German engine manufacturing has reached 6 cylinder engine in August 2021 and the pilot tested it in power generation. As I was saying in in early 2022, and I think if it works according to the announcement, if it works, they will expand to offer application in 2024 and later to heavy duty as infrastructure is built . And most recently Scania has announced partnership with Westport and they are looking at hydrogen-high-pressure direct injection fuel system. So far, the testing and the research shows that you know it passes the NOx emission and the exhaust emission requirement in EURO7 or PA 27 and also it seems that the concept doesn't need a lot of redesign of the engine. For example, external gas exchange system, after treatment, crankcase ventilation. So, in a way they using, they applying kind of this technology in existing technology but using zero carbon fuel. What's interesting also that I've seen is Renault has announced a concept car which is hybrid vehicle which has both you know fuel cell and ICE.

Hydrogen and conventional fuel?

Yes, they have both. Everyone is trying different technologies and see how they can tailor it and optimise it. But obviously it's too early to say which one is going be more popular. But so far as Salah was mentioning, it's probably FCEV's that we see more kind of being closer to commercialization. I think it gives opportunities and it's created this competition but for the better you know, and customers can then choose what's what makes sense for them.

Well, FCEV is already commercialised anyway. I mean, we can purchase but the problem is it's expensive. FCEV vehicles are really expensive! I think that's probably one of the reasons why the automotive manufacturers also look into developing hydrogen ICE. Because FCeV are expensive. But I don't know with the engine change, you know, probably because of the fuel change. Typically, you need to change all those fuel system in the ICE itself. I don't know about the price later on maybe we can see the price of those two types of hydrogen vehicles. Is it the hydrogen for FCEV and the hydrogen for ICE the same? Maybe Salah can explain more? Is it the same, or is it different, what is it?

In principle, hydrogen is the same fuel in both cases, right? The difference is basically how the two technologies produce or generate the power that the vehicle needs to run. The major difference is that in the hydrogen ICE (internal combustion engines) they work similarly to the traditional gasoline internal combustion engine. Whereas the hydrogen is stored in high pressure tanks that then fit into the engine through the intake manifold, once inside the engine the hydrogen is mixed with the air and then compressed by pistons and then decompressed. The hydrogen air mixture is basically ignited by a spark plug, this is exactly the process. This causing the controlled explosion or called the compression, which in principle powers the the engine. But on the other hand, the hydrogen fuel cell is a little bit more complicated, the hydrogen fuel cell is is an electromechanical device that converts the hydrogen and the oxygen into water, producing the electricity from this process and then in the second stage the electricity generated by the fuel cell can be again used to power electrical motor or even charge a battery. With that being said, I think as I mentioned, both technologies in in principle produce zero emissions. As you know, the only as we know the only byproduct from the from both is water.

Is there any possibility to have liquid hydrogen use as fuel? I know probably because it will require high pressure or cryogenic.

Yeah, happy to take the question.

I mean the the application for liquid hydrogen will have a role in the story of hydrogen in general. Especially there are certain applications, where it would be hard to decarbonized using the gaseous hydrogen even within the mobility side, the transportation sector, you know, gaseous hydrogen potentially is not a good option for the aviation, or for the vessel and ships. So, there are lots of limitations and the challenges that would face the gaseous hydrogen if we decided to use it again to decarbonize these sectors. At this point, the liquid hydrogen definitely can offer a big advantage, which is again the fact that we can get, higher volumes of energy from a small volume of hydrogen. This is really how I see it.

In in term of when we speak about mobility, obviously we need to understand a little bit more about the hydrogen refuelling stations, because you need to refuel. Are there any differences between stations selling hydrogen FCEV and for ICE. Will there be any differences between those two? Which one is more expensive to build? I know that hydrogen refuelling station cost is high, need high Capex, capital investment, capital expenditure. Can you explain a bit on that?

First, there are differences between the stations, we have to first understand the differences between the two types of the stations. This will tell us, how we're going to sell them. When we think about the differences in both technologies, we can predict that this will reflect on the filling stations themselves.

Few examples could be the fuelling or refuelling pressure. As I mentioned, the full electrical vehicles typically require higher fuelling pressure than the hydrogen internal combustion engines vehicles. So, the dispensing equipment in the hydrogen filling station for both will be different. On the other side also the refuelling type, the fuel cell electrical vehicles, potentially will have larger fuel tanks than the hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles. So, the fuelling time is longer for the fuel cell. This will have an impact on the design of the hydrogen filling stations and eventually selling them. For both reasons there will be a difference on the design of the refuelling stations as well. And eventually all of what I have said so far, will have an impact on the overall cost of the hydrogen fuelling stations both cases. But of course, as mentioned there are no hydrogen stations for the internal combustion engine vehicles that have been commercialised yet. So, as I mentioned, those are the potential major differences that will influence the the selling of of of these kind of stations in the near future.

Yes, I agree with you on that. Let's talk a little bit about the market. The world typically makes a reference to Europe because Europe, mostly most had funds in the emission and vehicle fund. Compared with any other region, so Dhanisha, could you tell us what is the current situation of hydrogen fuel in the transportation sector in Europe?

In Europe, in terms of regulation, there are a few legislations which have been proposed as part of the Fit for 55 in 2021, which directly or indirectly promotes hydrogen fuel and the transport sector. If we start the revision of the carbon dioxide emission standards for cars and vans have been agreed. Essentially, by 2035 new cars and vans should reduce their carbon dioxide emissions by 100% compared to 2021. Which favours the adoption of zero emission vehicles by tailpipe, for example, the FCEVs or battery electric vehicles. In terms of the Renewable Energy Directive, so that the RED 3, which is has been revised, there's a target for renewable fuels from non-biological origins. By this I mean any gaseous fuels or liquid fuels which are derived from renewable sources other than bio sources. The mandatory target for the share of RFNBOs (e-fuels another terminology used) is 2.6% by 2013 in transport, but this target has been further increased with the breed power EU strategy which was announced to reduce Russian fuel dependency and increased renewable energy. Then there's a few more like for example in the aviation sector, there is a soft mandate, from January 2030 about 5% of SAF (sustainable aviation fuel), and 5% of SAF needs to be blended in jet fuels. Of which 0.7% is coming from synthetic aviation fuel, and by this, I mean RFNBOs. But in recent negotiations, this target can come as early as 2025 instead of 2030. In marine there are new limits for GHG intensity reduction factors for energy use on ships and it set new rules for ships to use onshore power supplies and zero emission on-board technology. In recent negotiations, again there was proposal to use at least 2% of yearly energy on-board the ship, must come from RFNBOs. There is also the Energy Taxation Directive which clearly apply lower duty tax duty on hydrogen, be it grey, blue or green, compared to fossil fuel like diesel gasoline.

From 2030 to 2033, after 2033 green electricity will be the one with the lowest tax. Then you have the alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulation, which has targets for hydrogen infrastructure in Europe as from December 2030. So clearly you know, hydrogen is being promoted in the transport sector from a regulatory point of view. But from our latest analysis that SGS INSPIRE has done, Germany has the highest number of FCEV's in the Europe region and the highest number of refuelling stations as well. So, we expect growth in other countries as all these legislation that I've mentioned get agreed and comes into force. Also, we see a lot of companies, which have announced ambitious projects in the production of hydrogen. We see a lot of models for FCEV's in the heavy-duty sector or light-duty that's coming. I mean there are also tries in the jet engine fuel by hydrogen, for example, Rolls Royce together with EasyJet have done and tested it. In the marine sector, the use of ammonia and methanol, which are other forms of hydrogens, are being using in ferries or ships in the Scandinavian countries, so I think as success is being seen in those areas, it will be adopted.

It's interesting that you mentioned about the rainbow of hydrogen just now, the grey, blue and green. Hydrogen that is produced by conventional technology emits lots of CO2. So, the common agreement within the industry is that unless it uses green hydrogen, the use of hydrogen as fuel for vehicles at this time is deemed as worse for the environment, especially when it's grey or hydrogen, right? So, do you agree with that sentence? And if you agree, or if you don't agree, why? Maybe let's start with Salah.

Yes, I think the statement is definitely accurate as you said. The conventional hydrogen production methods, as you know, the steam methane reforming or what we call the SMR involves the use of natural gas as a feedstock in the 1st place, which results in significant CO2 emissions. Therefore, if the hydrogen that produces this kind of method, is not considered to be a clean fuel. While you know the green hydrogen is produced through the electrolysis of the water, using renewable energy sources, examples wind and solar power, this method of production results in no CO2 emissions. Making it a truly clean and sustainable fuel. I agree that the green hydrogen is what should we focus on and use to decarbonise the different industrial applications as an effective tool to fight climate change. We understand that there is a transition, we call it energy transition as nothing can happen between day and night and this is, I believe, one of the reason why room has been left for different things, you know, because so far we do not have the most advanced technologies to produce a cost effective green hydrogen from the technologies available in the market. Until we get to this point, there is a room for other things to play within the hydrogen (blue) story. There is room until we get to this point and for the E -fuels as Dhanisha said, especially in different sectors that will be hard to use hydrogen in.

Dhanisha, do you have any opinion on this?

I think I agree with what Salah said. I mean obviously we want green hydrogen. This is the one that would help decarbonize and bring down GHG emissions. But yes, we are through phase, and it doesn't happen overnight and that's why there's so many colours going on. There is a lot of push for green hydrogen even as I mentioned before, like the repower EU strategy that Europe has announced, they are pushing for 2030, which is only seven years ahead. They want, they want to import 10 million tonnes of green hydrogen from other places, North Africa, US & Chile, but also produce 10 million tonnes in the region. So, you know they there are high targets. We hope that there's more investment going on and for the scaling of of that.

But, you know, electrolytes is using water, right? You you need to split between the water H2O become H2 which is hydrogen and oxygen. Personally speaking, water is such a precious commodity. A lot of countries don't even have access to clean water or have limited access to clean water. They’ve built salination plants to process sea water into fresh water. With this green hydrogen development, which uses water. There may be an issue of freshwater versus fuel in the future. Like you know when it was biofuel at the start, they said food versus fuel. Do you think it will be an issue later fresh water versus fuel? This question is for both of you.

I think I mean, in principle, I agree that the production of green hydrogen using water as the main feedstock, does indeed raise concerns about the potential competition of freshwater resources. And indeed, while water is abundant on earth, it is not always easily accessible in certain regions and some countries have limited access to clean water around the world. However, also at the same time, it is worth noting that scientists and researchers are working on the development of new technologies that use saline water, brackish water as feedstocks. You know, still a longer journey to get to the point that we can say OK, we can commercialise this. But I think it will help to minimise the risk at a certain point in the future, this can or would reduce the strain on the freshwater resources. Additionally, for me this is most important as well, the efficiency of the water electrolysis process is also increasing, there is a massive or significant difference between what we have today and what we had, you know, 10 years ago. This is expected at growth. So, reducing the amount of water needed to produce the same amount of hydrogen is a key thing in the development that lots of companies are doing. This development of new technologies is what can actually help in reducing the water required in this production processes and it can help eventually to mitigate the issue and help to manage the water sources in a more sustainable way in principle.

Dhanisha maybe you have any idea or input on this.

Yes, I've seen an IEA report, which highlights that water requirement for green hydrogen is historically 9 litres of water per kilogrammes of hydrogen produced, and it's much higher than steam natural gas reforming, which is 5 litres of water per kg of hydrogen produced. However, for green hydrogen production, the total amount of water that's required can add up to 60 to 95 kilogrammes per hydrogen produced. When you consider the cooling of electrolysers, compressors, water disposal and for natural gas, reforming it, it's between 18 to 44 litres. So yeah, I mean it's quite significant if you're aiming for to produce millions of tonnes of green hydrogen. So, to prevent the similar debate from arising for freshwater versus fuel in regions where water is scarce. I think it makes sense, right? Yes, in theory it makes sense to use renewable directly that's been produced from wind or solar energy, but in practise it's a different story. I mean, we see hydrogen projects in North Africa and Middle East for export and in these regions where fresh water is scarce. So maybe this debate will come up eventually, just like with buying fuel did, you know where a category came later with the indirect land use change, these are omissions clauses indirectly by destroying natural resources with natural forest for growth, for feedstock, for biofuels. So for hydrogen, there might be instead indirect use change, you know. So I think a more holistic and integrated approach Is required for hydrogen production projects at early stages when they are planned, but it's really optimistic to hear that and great to hear from Salah that there are new technologies looking at how to minimise the water use. So yes, we'll see, I mean it's interesting when you dig into the details.

Salah, is there any possibility to use wastewater instead?

Absolutely. So, lots of different types of water as the examples that I mentioned, but also waste water streams can be used. I know it’s not just the major water electrolyzers suppliers working on this but also a number of new startups have built the technology based on using the waste water. I know myself, a couple of them have been working on this in the last 12 months, achieving some significant success in increasing little bit the efficiency of these kind of electrolysers that use waste water as the main feedstock for the process. I think if these technologies manage to increase the efficiencies of these technologies, the issue will turn from being, you know, a challenge, a risk that this industry brings an opportunity you know the massive volumes of waste waters coming from different parts of the world, and if we don't actually make a good use of it to produce, you know, a fuel like the green hydrogen. This, as I mentioned, will turn it the whole thing from being a challenge into or in or risk into a big opportunity.

Solving two problems at one go. However, I never seen a debate on the water versus fuel in publications, unlike the food versus fuel, which you can find everywhere. Have you? Salah maybe?

I mean, in general, the discussion of water versus food in relation to the green hydrogen production has been addressed in various publications and research studies. But I have seen regularly people asking the question at many events, conferences, and meetings. From my perspective, I see this as a very healthy discussion, it is good to pick things like this in this early phase of developing the industry. I think putting this in the picture, in the front lines will help really to ensure that major companies, Industry leaders and policymakers, will consider the potential challenges coming from this side or from this issue and carefully plan and implemented the development of the overall hydrogen economy in a more sustainable and reasonable manner. I see, people questioning lots of the pieces across the hydrogen economy, including cost, water, our ability to develop more advanced technologies. I take it positively. I think all of these discussions and questions will help to guide the hydrogen economy and hydrogen industry to the right path.

Yes, agree with you as well, Let's peek into the future. In five years’ time what do you see on the development of the hydrogen fuel in 2028-2030? How do you see the use of hydrogen as fuel in both FCEV and ICE. Do you think it will be policy? but markets sometimes react differently also with the policy, right. So, what do you see in terms of the market, the flow movement on the use of hydrogen as fuel in both FCEV and ICE?

I mean in general, as you said, this depends on variety of factors such as the technological developments, the government policies and regulations, and the market demand as well. However, all I can say is that based on the current trends and developments, I'm sure that the use of hydrogen as a fuel will continue to grow in the next 5 years. Dhanisha gave some good examples of some policies, regulations that will be expected to push the use of hydrogen as a fuel. You know, maybe one thing I can add on top of what Dhanisha said, proposed from the European Commission last year to ban the internal combustion engine that produces CO2 by 2035. The business knows that there is no room for anything in the future except potentially the battery electric vehicles or the hydrogen internal combustion engines vehicles as well. That means we are now creating more room and strengthening the potential future of hydrogen. The growth of the full cell vehicles is expected to increase as more manufacturers are investing in the development of this technology and the governments around the world are providing financial incentives to support this Industry. The number of hydrogen refuelling stations, is expected to increase for this reason, which will make it easier for the owners of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles or at a certain time also the hydrogen ices to refuel their vehicles. This will encourage more to come to this market. Got to be clear. You know, while again I'm very optimistic, but the rate of growth of this business and the specific technologies that will dominate the market is difficult to predict. It will depend on several factors as I mentioned, I'm very optimistic about the future of this industry. The whole story is not driven from the business, the story of the hydrogen or using a clean fuel came from the fact that the climate change is happening. I think hydrogen offered Itself an effective tool to help us in accelerated our fighting against climate change and creating a sustainable and the clean healthy future for the next generation. I think this is their right actually for us to do now.

I think discussion is good and we can keep talking about this and discussing them for days, unfortunately we don't have time. I really think that we are in an exciting time for new developments, and innovation on how the future transportation will be. As of now, we we will have a lot of transportation modes, it's difficult to find only one fuel in the future. So, it's really an exciting time to see what or how it will be later? Personally speaking, I think unlike the current situation where we mostly use one type of fuel either gasoline or diesel. In the future we may see many types of fuel and engines that will be used. That's what I personally think. I kind of hope that our decarbonization efforts to fight the climate change will not leave behind unintended consequences that our next generations need to solve. Thank you very much to both of you for your favourable insights. We may want to look back to this conversation a few years down the road to see actually what we discussed, whether it's happening like this or something else may happen along the way. Thank you again for Salah and Dhanisha for joining the inspiring energy talks. This is SGS Inspire podcast.

Thank you very much for you being here and see you again in our next episode and let's keep inspiring.